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The biggest question that hasn't been answered to me is: If Bundy gets the deal done, why didn't you do it?
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Are you arguing that just because he barely made the cut three months ago Jed should have easily chosen Dahl over Winker without thinking? Prospect values aren't that static, and this scoring context is key.
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I got the impression EP was miffed that Jed wouldn?t be just as interested in Dahl as Winker. Between BP and BA (the two I trust most), Dahl?s avg ranking was 97.
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I still fail to see why making a static, pre-season ranking list is the only way to evaluate prospects, especially once it's mid season and stats are in play to provide greater context.
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obviously ignores the age differences; 3.78 FIP over 427 IP for QUintana (1785 points), 3.74/416/1905 for Iwakuma
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Since we're done w/trade talk and back to players: here is Jose Quintana vs Hisashi Iwakuma 2012-2014: http://goo.gl/6lTpuW
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Let's just stop with the "Top 50" designation for guys that have never made a preseason top 100 list. Perhaps Winkler is Frank Robinson, I have no idea, but I'm losing track of the 200 players who apparently have "top 50" designation (not from you Durham
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Here's a package better than Winkler and Iwakuma - some other back-end top 50 prospect and Jose Quintana.
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I see. SO actually the not making offers didn't matter, because you were going elsewhere. That's all good, just was trying to understand why the "you didn't make an official offer" stuff from Trey matter. Turns out, it didn't, of course, which I said.
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Unlike the rest of the league, I don't think Winker is worthless. Obviously.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:45 PM
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No, the message there -- which I thought was pretty civil -- was "I can get something better than Bundy so you need to offer up Bundy to stay in the conversation."
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:44 PM
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and when I'm told that a deal "must include Player XX", I should take that as meaning make many offers not including Player XX
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Sometimes you just zero in on the owner with the horses you want. Trey and I exchanged 82 messages about Stanton. But I liked Baez better than Correa, and Giolito better than Harper.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:43 PM
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So you're demanding I tell you now, after you've already made the trade, what my offer would have been if given the opportunity to actually make it. Perfectly sensical.
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Yeah I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Trey, Nick, WGW, am I particularly averse to trade negotiation through messages?
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:41 PM
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Trey and I sent a ton of messages back and forth working on that deal. They absolutely count. But they yielded a much clearer sense of whom he would part with.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:40 PM
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if they're specifically called out as DOA? I'm cool if we all agree with that process, will just stop all emails and start communicating via trade offers only
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And -- getting back to Trey's point -- you'd think a reigning league champ would get more respect for his player valuations! To read this board, I've unloaded my top talent for a bunch of hosers.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:39 PM
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and honestly, I'm just wanting to make sure I understand the rules so in the future I will have only myself to blame -- email discussions do not count for anything. All that matters is offers clicked through the site, and they must occur to "count", even
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And I still have not heard the CLEARLY-better-than-Winkler/Iwakuma packages that I missed out on. Probably because they were impossibilities.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:38 PM
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There is no collusion here. And it's not like I am unloading my talent on one team. I've had great negotiations with Trey, Nick, and WGW. All of which ended in major trades.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:36 PM
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Trey is crazy active, willing to talk, willing to tolerate difference of opinion and rebuffs. Willing to throw out 8 offers and have me reject all 8 before accepting the 9th.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:35 PM
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If you want another team's players badly, you make one or more solid offers. Three weeks of clearly publicized availability, and *zero* thru-the-site offers from Durham/Enrico. Unless I'm missing something.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:34 PM
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If the issue is the process, I'm really gonna stand my ground here. Availability of Lee/Ortiz was advertised for a loooong time. When Trey and I were close, I think I posted 2 or 3 times that they were on the move.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:33 PM
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Are we talking about Stanton? Because there was literally no way that someone was going to top two top-15 prospects for Stanton and Pollock. Was not going to happen.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:32 PM
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So, to recap: I proposed something you wouldn't do and your response was to go silent and just take another deal. Good tactic.
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I mean, you weren't insisting on Hambrels or Kimbrel, but WGW emerged as a team that was willing to give a big return for just Stanton. Which was decisive for me.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:05 PM
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"Would you do Hamels or Kimbrel instead of Lee/Cargo?" That absolutely changed the conversation. From two non-keepers to two keepers. At that point it was apples and oranges. The whole point was to extract value from unkeepable players on my roster.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 5:04 PM
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Now we can discuss the merits of Iwakuma and Quintana, one traded for and one cut on the same day
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Yes you're completely right, this was a mere disagreement on player valuation nothing more, crazy for me to have raised anything. Congrats and next.
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As is usually the cae, we differ on the actual valuation of the players (prospects) in this format. That's not only ok, but not surprising. That in itself doesn't make it a bad deal or process though.
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And that's where we disagree, in two parts: 1) I don't think asking for Bundy is the moon, and 2) I see Winker/Iwakuma as more valuable anyway. Jed's acceptance of that package confirms he agreed.
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Seems to be his ask started sky high (Bundy), and he eventually settled for "nothing" (Winker/Iwakuma). You felt he didn't present a fair value for what it would take for those players
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"Congrats, you got 3 players that might help for nothing. I don't think that the process here makes the league better. Two teams got asked for the moon, then the price dropped to the dump you offered and he took it."
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I truly want to understand the concern. Reading back through, the crux of your argument seems to be this:
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No one can dispute that what you offered does or does not have more value than what Jed accepted because you've never said what you offered. You want to argue facts, but we don't have any from your side
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No, I will not correct you for the millionth time. Congrats, won the argument. You can move on to whatever is up next
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Stating that an owner received less in value than what you didn't actually offer is the ultimate form of the straw man argument. Maybe I'm reading the concern wrong, so please correct me where I'm missing your point
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Case Closed! You win. Good one! Congrats, you won the trade and the argument. Well done.
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1) It doesn't matter what you think - it only matters what Jed thinks, and 2) Did you ever offer Bundy? If not, case closed
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I'm not listening, I'm just reading your comments. That's all I have to go on. My impression of your concern is that you think Winker/Iwakuma is crap compared to Bundy. My response is two-fold:
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NO thanks Trey. You've not listened all morning, you're not going to start now. Let's talk about how Iwakuma differs from Jose Quintana
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"Iwakuma is a stud or Jesse Winkler is Miguel Sano" - None of those words have been stated, have they?
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Please, for the record, state your argument. From what I can tell it is different from Durham's. What is your primary concern?
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however I will retain right to comment on absurd statements on players; for instance, Iwakuma is a stud or Jesse Winkler is Miguel Sano
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again, not my argument and you're misstating to create a torchable strawman, so your absurd "not legit" designation is hereby rejected. Thank you for playing though. And I promise that I won't say another word about the trade.
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The argument would've been avoided if EP had offered Bundy. He didn't, so Jed took a different offer. I don't see how you can complain about that. To Jed, Bundy = Winker/Iwakuma (if not more)
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I still hear two different arguments: Durham arguing he didn't have time to respond (legit); EP arguing the package he didn't offer > than the package Jed accepted (not legit).
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I think you forgot 25 and 33, which are their respective ages
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Hisashi Iwakuma's relevant #s are 71 IP, 3.57 FIP, 329 points and 4.63 P/IP
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