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In other news, Jose Quintana, just cut, has thrown 90 IP of 3.01 FIP ball, for 434 points or 4.81 P/IP
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No answer, Stanton traded for Baez and Giolito a few hours later. To my knowledge, neither of those guys is a "a good MLB keeper"
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Me - I would consider Davis and Sano for Stanton and one of the others but not Gomez and Sano. Would you do Hamels or Kimbrel instead of Lee/Cargo?
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And the Stanton sequence - he return for Stanton/Lee or CarGo would be good MLB keeper with upside plus top prospect, so like Gomez or Davis + Sano
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There wasn't a firm ask for Kershaw because you traded him about 2 minutes after posing that he was available, but this is what you said in the aftermath - ".I kind of figured that my ask would have to be Gomez + Sano"
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You gave up Beltre in that deal too, so not exactly like he just threw in Carlos Martinez for nothing.
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One sticking point here is that you and Enrico are talking about Sano and Bundy as if they are Trout and Strasburg. They are both broken, and I've seen Sano comped to Pedro fricking Alvarez. So you guys just value your guys higher than I do. Which is fine
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:34 PM
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I'm going to go thru my message history later to see if that was really my firm ask. But I wanted a very good $10 or less player and a top prospect. Not only did I get that with Shark/Harvey, but he added Carlos Martinez to it. Not so far off Gomez/Sano..
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:33 PM
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Chicago Chiefs's trade block has been updated!
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If you want to bullshit me on the initial asking price, that's fine. I have no problem with that. But don't just go away when I say no and deal for the next closest offer that is on the table. That's not how trade negotiations should work.
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I was told asking price for Kershaw and Stanton (individually, not together) was Gomez and Sano and then they traded for Shark/Hunter Harvey and Baez/Giolito.
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I'm not trying to single you out because I've raised the same objection over and over again with regard to timing/opportunity, but
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My reasoning with pulling the trigger was that, if no Sano/Corriea, we were looking at Jose Berrios and Domonic Smith. If I felt you could top Trey's offer I would have waited.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:24 PM
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You're right Durham, i should have at least waited for a response to that question. That was hasty on my part. I just wanted to stop talking about a guy named "Winker"...clearly that didn't work.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:22 PM
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I would take Winker/Iwakuma over Bundy all day, which is why I demanded Bundy + something small.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:21 PM
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On the Enrico side, the fact that Bill views Winker/Iwakuma as 10% (or whatever he said) of Dylan "8 professional innings" Bundy shows that we were hopelessly far apart anyway.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:21 PM
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Why would you ask the question "What are you thinking is appropriate value for one or both of them?" if you're not willing to wait for the answer?
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But again....two- or three-week window to bombard me with offers like Trey and Nick tend to do.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:19 PM
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I pulled the trigger on the Trey deal b/c, with Sano, Correia, Bundy off the table, I viewed that package as not likely to be beaten by Durham/Enrico. So at that point why wait?
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:18 PM
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Plus I'm still waiting to hear which package I didn't wait long enough to hear about that was as good or better than Winker/Iwakuma. These are two pretty nice contracts for three 35+ yo players.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:17 PM
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If you frame it as "what's the ask?" you can rest assured that I will shoot for the moon and talk downward from there.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:16 PM
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This was also why Chiefs and Lucky had a leg up in the Kershaw sweepstakes. They framed it as "I am willing to give you this" rather than "what's the ask?"
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:15 PM
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Only YOU could have prevented this forest fire...
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The "I only had 90 minutes to make an offer" thing is a little disingenuous. These players were advertised as available for two weeks.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:14 PM
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Oh hey guys.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 2:13 PM
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Proving my point re listening
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Regardless, it sounds like Bundy was the only piece he was interested in, so you essentially had the option to make the trade. The debate I guess is in the valuation of Winker vs Bundy. Jed can address that one.
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I can sympathies with Durham on the timeline, and I've lost out on other trades (even ones with Jed) that I thought I offered more. Still think he sold low on Stanton and I offered more, but not everyone values players the same way I do.
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I'm pretty sure Jed kept me waiting on my offer for almost 48 hours because he said several times he needed to do more research on Winker. No idea what was happening on the other end of those discussions with other teams
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Listening.
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Listening or agreeing?
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Sigh. I don't know why I allow myself to be sucked into discussions when I know you aren't listening. It's like my addiction
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If what I got was such an incredible deal, why not move Bundy for it? My guess is your response to him would have been..."average age is 36...Ortiz has been terrible...Lee is injured..." Same as my concerns.
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Saying no deal can be done without Bundy does not seem like an unreasonable position to me. My assumption is that Jed values Bundy & Winker similarly, but only he can speak to that.
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Jesus Christ trey please see the 58 posts where I said congrats and you did nothing wrong
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+1 on Durhams point; in my case I was told that it was not possible to combine any of my roster not including Bundy that would result in a deal. Again if I'm required to then to push "offer trade" on a deal that is already declared pre-DOA, um, ok
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So the key issue for Durham is the time window. I can understand that. Only Jed can speak to that part of the process. That's out of my control. My job is to help my team in the best way possible.
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"Awful trade" screams a) you are the only one who can properly value a prospect and b) you had a better package you offered. Neither are true in this case.
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Actually, I couldn't have. That's my objection. We were at a point in our negotiation where I was asked to make an offer. Less than two hours later a trade was made. Is that all the time I have? On a Sunday morning in June?
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Both are and can be true; they aren't in conflict. I bought Lee/Ortiz at a price the other owner thought was clearly fair. I can't see how that is a problematic process. Bottom line is you could have made a better offer.
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Can I also observe that both Sano and Bundy are in varying degrees of being broken...
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 11:03 AM
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Winker looks pretty good to me, and most evaluators this season are saying they really missed on him: http://redsminorleagues.com/2014/06/12/comparing-jesse-winker-to-other-reds-at-the-same-stage/
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I took what I deemed the best prospect package I could get.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 11:02 AM
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That's awesome trey but almost entirely irrelevant to the point I've made here
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Well this sure has escalated. More on my reasoning in a bit. Still... Guys were clearly available. Concrete offers did not roll in.
Eckfords ⚾ on
June 23, 2014 11:01 AM
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Which one is it? Winker is an elite otto prospect or we need to have some perspective about the old, broken, light hitting guys you just acquired? I'm assuming you wouldn't make the trade if you believed both sides of the argument you're making.
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We each obviously have different valuations of Winker. I wouldn't trade Winker for Bundy, so that tells you how I value him. Context is key : Winker's skill set is perfect for Ottoneu
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Like I said great deal for you, but awful trade and it made no sense not to go back to Durham and to me and say "ok forget the top 10 guys I told you were the min that wasn't true as it turns out"
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So why the frustration if it did in fact require Bundy? It's clear you didn't have another player(s) he wanted for that package. It's also clear you'd have Lee/Ortiz right now if you were willing to move Bundy
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Yes, I'm sure Jesse Winkler will next in the long line of 21 year olds who jump from AA to the bigs and have an immediate impact.
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