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Division winners:
Arizona
St Louis
Washington DC
Seattle
Twin cities
Toronto
I think Colorado, Nationals and Oakland are going to be most improved. Nationals winning division would need my prediction that Mets, Phillies, and braves underwhelm. I think nationals can’t get to 100 wins, but should be major improvement
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Division winners:
Toronto
Minnesota
Seattle
Atlanta
Milwaukee
LA Dodgers
Toronto beats the Dodgers for the World Series
Not very confident in the WS prediction.
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A minimum cap is bullying 🤣🤣. If I owned a team in real life I would genuinely be like the Oakland A’s spending wise.
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That way there would be less dollars flying around so it would be much more difficult for a team to get over the $600 threshold.
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I was just kidding regarding a proposed rule change, I'm just a little bitter being left in the dust. You all are right regarding rules changes not being retroactive. I also agree that having the draft early did encourage this trade activity. I do think it is a great feature of Ottoneu that you can trade cheap young players/prospects for stars.
But since may half jest gained some well thought out debate, another way to keep salaries in line is require teams to have a minimum cap numbe
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Yeah aka big papi legend
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Good insight Walnut! I definitely like a tiered idea of giving more flexibility as the season goes on, but we can get a handful of ideas together and vote on what will be best (even if that is do nothing).
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Definitely want to make sure it is clear I wasn't trying to imply he shouldn't be owning that many teams by my questions, just legitimately amazed and curious how you manage all that! I recently cut back from 6 leagues to 3 leagues (2 Ottoneu) because I felt I wasn't able to give 6 different leagues enough attention!
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Also said "We have consistently around 6 or 7 teams that are still in it around August. Very competitive. There are still trades but not the huge blow everyone out of the water trades. In fact, the last 2 runaway victories were pre-rule change. All the current owners really love this league." So maybe not exactly this but something along these lines could make sense. Maybe a limit on loans from the auction until some point in the season & a second limit after that? Just spitbal
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I got this feedback from an owner in another league: "we had some clashes over this way back in 2017. We initially had some coupon penalties associated with taking on too much loans. Now we just have a $50 net loans cap. But of course, the modifications make us ineligible for OPL & there's only 1 or 2 teams that care about that." "We got rid of the coupons but swapped the tiered loan limits with a single $50 net outgoing minus incoming loans limit. Easy for everyone to re
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Yeah Big Papi has always been responsive, active and engaged in all my interactions with him as well. Much more so than owners with only one or two teams in many cases. I would imagine it would take hours every day in season to manage lineups and trades, that is some commitment! And agree we should keep track of all the ideas that we can brainstorm to figure out a good and fair path going forward.
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WBGS (AKA Big Papi) has proven to be a good, active owner in the leagues I'm in with him and is an inspiration to all of us who own "too many" teams. Niv likes him too.
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You own 132 teams!? I have questions... How? Why? Are you okay?
But seriously, why do you own such an outrageous number of teams and how can you possibly keep up with that many? Keeping lineups set all season for just a couple of teams is a commitment.
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Wow, I didn't realize. I looked at your profile when we traded in another league because I appreciate knowing how many teams someone manages.
Your number blows my mind. At first, I just assumed there was some error.
Exeter Velos on
March 16, 2023 4:57 PM
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By the way for people who know me, I'm AKA Big Papi memories or AKA Big Papi
Boo Birds on
March 16, 2023 4:53 PM
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I volunteer to make kind of spreadsheet with the different ideas discussed below, weighing factor so we can give it some shape. If you have other thoughts, send them in, I will add them, will not rule anything out, everything is going to be there for us to discuss at one point
Boo Birds on
March 16, 2023 4:52 PM
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I'm in agreement with Tumbleweed Futures about keeping a list of today's thoughts and then addressing them after we see how the season plays out.
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It’s the commissioners world, we’re all just living in it!
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I also agree with Flying Squirrels that money doesn't always buy championships. Since we shouldn't do anything retroactively, is there a way we can systematically track some of these suggestions and discuss them at a point during the year before potentially making any adjustments? Maybe that's not needed, but for me it's hard to keep track of all the suggestions on a message board. I'd also be interested in the process for approving a change.
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Let me just say first off that I really enjoy this league and the level of respectful discourse engaged in below is one of the prime reasons why. I hold no animosity or judgement towards the character or judgement of any of our owners. Everyone's trades fall within Ottoneu's rules. That being said, I would support some small adjustments for future seasons. I think Spa and Racob got it right that part of this was probably fueled by the early draft.
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I also would argue that to a degree loans are part of what helps keep Ottoneu balanced. Walnut had a much better team than me coming into the year (and still has a better team than me), without the ability to trade my lower salary high surplus players for higher priced players I would have had a very difficult time building a team that could have a chance to contend with him.
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I think the fact that loans go away in the offseason and your cap resets to force you to get under $400 - empty roster slots helps even things out some, and would agree the issue seems to be more with the timing of the trades than anything. I think it would make sense if we did something to try to curb big loan deals from after the auction until maybe sometime in May since that is when a lot of teams make their initial evaluations about their position in the standings?
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I think the fact that loans go away in the offseason and your cap resets to force you to get under $400 - empty roster slots helps even things out some, and would agree the issue seems to be more with the timing of the trades than anything. I think it would make sense if we did something to try to curb big loan deals from after the auction until maybe sometime in May since that is when a lot of teams make their initial evaluations about their position in the standings?
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I would argue against the sentiment "championships should be more determined with decisions made all year". In order to get to this place I had to have a very quality team built with players that have surplus value that I was then able to trade for higher priced players. It isn't like this is some cheat code either, I have had teams with over $600 in salary not even finish in the top half of the league before.
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I get a fair amount of trades that have better surplus value than my stars, but surplus doesn't win leagues and you can only play so many guys with the games and innings limits, so you need those studs.
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Totally legit strategy all around. I still say it’s the timing. Five and six hundred dollar budgets are not unusual amongst ottoneu league winners. Have a hard cap on team budgets until the break or first month or whatever can be agreed to and you preserve the strategy that makes ottoneu fun and keeps people engaged in this current year for a longer period of time. Also, this is the most civil discussion I’ve ever seen on the topic. Thank you!
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Maybe teams are too quick to build for the future or maybe we are undervaluing these top, albeit expensive, talents?
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I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of the idea of modified rules for one particular league like this, but it would be really nice to somehow curb this in the future. There can tend to be unintended consequences when doing things like that but definitely open to some changes that could help. I think the championships should be more determined with decisions made all year rather than just being able to swing a few big loan trades after auction and before the season.
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I am a participant in it but am not a big fan of this either. Not at all trying to pass blame but once I saw the $52 Cole trade and subsequent O'Neill/Williams trade I had to do something. I think I built up a great team and legit contender up to and immediately after the auction and couldn't just let that go to the wayside and sit by passively while another contender built up a monster team based on big loans. So I felt I had to respond with 2023 upgrades at the expense of surplus/future value.
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I agree that an early draft tends to lead to some dejection because of injuries. But that happens in season too and you generally try to work through it, so it shouldn't be any different now.
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Early draft date does accelerate the process I think. Love the early draft because it’s so boring from Jan 31 til the draft but maybe the downside is too much. Good idea. Maybe just holding the draft closer to opening day would be a simple idea for next year.
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Not all leagues but often enough that many of us have seen this conversation before. Pretty extreme example going on here this year. Definitely prefer the overall team type caps versus individual trade cap ideas whose spirit can be creatively circumvented and then require the commissioner to arbitrate disputes.
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How much do we think our early draft played into this? I know me and maybe a few others who traded for surplus originally planned to see how the season would start before making moves, but as more trades snowballed the power of the top teams weeks before opening day, that strategy made less and less sense. Or is this a problem in most leagues regardless of the draft day?
Exeter Velos on
March 16, 2023 3:15 PM
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That's interesting Cronengirth
Boo Birds on
March 16, 2023 3:14 PM
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We could also try to limit the amount of loan within a trade. Would make having room under your cap actually matter. Like limit it to $20 or something, it seems like these $40-50 loans enable these super teams.
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Don't the loans disappear at the end of season (in or out)?
Boo Birds on
March 16, 2023 3:11 PM
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Interesting idea. Might slow it down some. Many of the acquired players by the contenders are planned cuts but some are not
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Another suggestion I've heard is a rule that teams be under $400 by the time of arbitration (instead of Jan 31). That would remove the huge benefit of being able to trade your excess salary players during the Winter for cheaper players for the following year. It would discourage building $600+ rosters if you knew the benefit would end with the season while the cheaper players you had traded away would be lost.
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Wham Bam there is no rule that you can't trade or participate in auctions/waivers if you are over $400. You only can't participate if you are over your salary cap (which can be increased by incoming loans) or have more players than roster spots.
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That was surplus “for” studs and one “month” to go. Sorry for typos. An additional consideration is any league rules make teams ineligible for opl which squirrels is doing. Of course, this year must go “as is”. Only future years should be considered for change.
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Unlimited with a months to go before the deadline. Some kind of construct like that keeps the strategy but doesn’t kill everybody’s hopes in spring training
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I couldn’t get support for my idea a few years ago in a different league but my base assumption was that the basic concept of trades with high surplus value players from contenders but larger salaried “studs” is a core ottoneu strategy and not the problem. What people seem to hate is the timing. When it happens before opening day like here, all hope is extinguished before the first pitch is thrown. I suggested a cap of $450 through April 30 then $500 another month down the road and finally
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I'm still new to Ottoneu, so my thoughts don't have much knowledge behind them. But I appreciate that all budgets are reset to $400 at the start of the next year. I think it helps keep a baseline of simplicity when there are a number of other balancing mechanics.
I wouldn't be opposed to a hard cap, or even a hard floor. Maybe a valid budget has to be $300-500. That could lead to deeper trade talks as well, giving another factor to consider.
Exeter Velos on
March 16, 2023 2:40 PM
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Isn't the rule clear, that if you are over 400$, you can't trade and participate in auctions/waivers. If a team can carry 608$ all year without being penalized, what's the use of putting rules in place. The luxury tax won,t fix anything IMO
Boo Birds on
March 16, 2023 2:34 PM
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I do agree that would be unfair to retroactively enforce for this year
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Even as a team who currently will have $608 in salary cap before the season starts I am not completely opposed to something like this. I think your suggestion is probably too harsh, maybe more along the lines of $1 penalty for every $5 over $500? With arbitration and salary increases there is already measures in place to keep the league balanced, and by going for it this year Walnut and I have traded away a lot of guys with surplus value that will hurt our ability to contend again next year.
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My team has a clear bias for said rule, but do think a luxury tax makes sense if the league will just be 2-3 550 dollar teams each year.
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I think us small market teams should get a piece of the tax 🤣🤣. Some sort of luxury tax would need to be thought out
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I really dislike the baseball media and large market East Coast teams in general, in particular I hate the Mets. So there is a silver lining in all of this for me.
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I wonder if we should put in a salary cap rule similar to MLB. Like a soft cap, for example for every $1 a team that is over $500 there is a $.50 cap penalty the next year and over $600 a cap penalty of $1 for every $1 over $600. I jest of course...... or am I?
BTW, any rule change, we would need 8 affirmative votes. I don't believe in a simple majority in rule changes.
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