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The willingness to trade a good to great player would also be affected by the player's salary, age, injury, etc. The fact that Bellinger has not been traded in ANY H2H league since mid-December, which was in this league, tells us that the teams that own Bellinger do not want to give him up, likely because his salaries are good to reasonable for his performance, he is only 24, has some position flexibility, etc. His performance also wasn't HALF of what it was last year. It's definitely up, but
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:45 PM
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As to my comment about Bellinger not being traded, let me try to be more clear. A player is more likely to be traded where there is high demand. I think we can all agree that there is and has been a good market for Bellinger. A player is less likely to be traded when supply is low (i.e. In this case, that would be where the teams with Bellinger do not want to give him up). Players with good to great performance are less likely to be traded because their teams prefer to keep them.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:42 PM
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Zips, appreciate your thoughtful comments, though I disagree. JBP by his own statement didn't get "the best deal". He specifically stated "I understand I should have received more...." In and of itself, unless you're taking BM's approach that almost no trade should be vetoed regardless of how lopsided it is, then that statement by itself should cause this trade to be canceled.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:38 PM
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one last thing - i had lindor on the block for WEEKS. only monkeys reached out. EVERYONE else had the chance to get him.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 21, 2019 2:31 PM
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but, each person runs their team THEIR way. if pope thought he got the best deal, then he did.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:25 PM
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otto - last year, bellys stats were HALF of what they are now. to say he has more value cuz he hasnt been traded as much is difficult to follow. i bet he is traded even MORE this offseason because more people believe he can repeat 2019 more so than 2018 and they think he will carry them. the only part i can agree on is that belly should have been put on the block to better judge his value to see if teams see him as a 2019 player and less of the 2018 player
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:23 PM
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BM I think your effort to defend the trade by these comparisons is building the frustration--as much frustration at your defense of the trade as the trade itself. I agree with Otto's comments about the Kluber comparison, and Arenado Blackmon and Scherzer are not comparable because of the age difference. None are 24 (Blacmon & Scherzer have entered geezerhood) and none are having the year Bellinger has had. Just admit you made a super deal and we move on.
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...of their roster shows it.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:16 PM
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when evaluating the trades, look at monkeys team. could he protect belly and lindor? sure, but the price is high. that means that degrom, boegarts, pham, carrasco and greinke should be available. he cant keep them ALL.qould anyone trade belly for one, two or three of those guys? would belly for boegarts and france be a good trade? swaying the balance of the league with one trade isnt gonna happen. the fact is that shoopy and monkeys put more time in this than anyone else and the construction..
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:15 PM
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attention. To the point of why this trade SHOULD be vetoed, you yourself say "I understand I should have received more...." By your own admission, you didn't get fair value if you believe you should have gotten more. Just to put an exclamation point on the difference...since the trade you raised about Arenado, he's been trade 5 times since last December in H2H. Bellinger hasn't been traded once in that same time. That tells you there is a difference in how Bellinger and Arenado are
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 11:10 PM
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...my team is a classic example. havent had much time to devle deep, so im suffering.
these trades are interesting. i also vetoed the bellinger trade, but after thinking, i shouldnt have. my trade with him is different. sure, i gave up frankie, but i also gave up a middle of the rotation guy for an ss with comparable stats, a good young player in lowe and a chance prospect in france. was france am fa? sure, but so was soto, et al. doesnt matter when they were signed....
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:09 PM
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And, another player to sweeten the pot. Sure. How did that work out? Wouldn't it had been better for the rebuilding team to keep Arenado? Demand more proven talent in return for a cornerstone superstar player? The truth is this trade should have been vetoed too, but you can't judge every trade going forward by finding a worse trade that went through before and use that as your baseline. It also matters that this trade was in the off-season when not everyone is paying the same level of...
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 11:04 PM
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been reading these as they come in and the last couple are funny. leave the league over a trade? call someone an idiot over fantasy baseball? wow. dont know how old some of you are, but ive been playing fantasy baseball for 40 years, since i was 14. mail in leagues. even ran a fantasy business back in the day, so ive seen just about everything. i think we covered this earlier. if you want to have the success of the monkeys and shoopy, you put in the time....
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:04 PM
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JBP,you ask a good question and I will give you a respectful answer. You're right to the extent on its face it looks similar. You could argue that Arenado is 3 years older and $8 more expensive, which lower his overall value, but the real answer is...I'll guarantee this was sold as trading a star player to help a rebuilding team, saving on cost, getting a top OF prospect in return that had already tasted MLB and everyone expected to emerge this coming season. And, throw in an arm with upside.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 11:02 PM
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Anyone can leave the league and anyone can vote to veto. These are owners’ rights. I honestly don’t see how this deal is so different from the deals for Blackman, Arenado, or Scherzer. As a buyer, I don’t remember a bidding process for those guys, the returns were not that different, and they’re all pretty similar in star power as Belli. So, it starts to feel like the frustration is something more than just disagreement with this deal.
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Pope, you idiot, stop being stupid.
STL Wise Guys on
August 20, 2019 10:25 PM
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Anyway, I'll leave the league when the Bellinger trade is approved. It's not a fantasy league, it's a Neverland for Monkeys.
STL Wise Guys on
August 20, 2019 10:19 PM
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Ok chief
Taken on
August 20, 2019 10:18 PM
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At least I put Arenado on the block. But it didn't sell, so it ended up being a bargain. Much better than your stupid trade.
STL Wise Guys on
August 20, 2019 10:16 PM
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You might be right. But it is a Dynasty league and I'm looking 2 years away, again. I looked at past trades and you gave up arenado for r lopez, k tucker, and trivino...........how is this worse?
Taken on
August 20, 2019 10:07 PM
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Hey Pope, you have to think about this. That your immature move could break the balance of the entire league. And if you were thinking of selling Bellinger, why didn't you put it on the block? If you did, you could have paid a lot more. What's the point of handing Bellinger over at such a bargain? I just don't understand.
STL Wise Guys on
August 20, 2019 10:00 PM
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I get why some of you are upset and I probably would be as well. I just dont see my team as competing for another couple seasons. I figure by the time I am ready to compete bellinger will be to high priced to keep. I understand I should have received more but adell is a player I value highly over the next few years. Future cost was a huge factor. Maybe I should have waited a year but it was my choice to move him now. We didnt think L castillo would be this good a year ago either. Time will tell.
Taken on
August 20, 2019 9:46 PM
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...received a 24 year old cornerstone superstar player at a very reasonable salary for his performance at a price far far below market value based on what we know today. You could justify any trade by your comparison to what happened with Kluber if the baseline is well if the guy I'm getting gets hurt tomorrow, I'll get nothing out of this trade, though to be fair, it was your choice to cut him. You could have held on to him to get value from him next year, though I understand you cutting him.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 7:04 PM
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BM, with all due respect, the Bellinger trade is nothing like the Kluber trade. You're comparing apples and oranges because of an out of the ordinary timing of Kluber's injury relative to your trade. It's possible that Adell becomes the next Trout and Marquez becomes the next Kershaw while Bellinger wakes up tomorrow and decides he doesn't want to play baseball anymore, but that's all highly unlikely. Much much more likely that you....
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 6:58 PM
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First, LOL...You must have been busy making your own trade inquires because I've actually traded 4-5 prospects fairly recently and have been trying to trade others, included Mize and others on the trade block, sent out messages about Mize and have gotten little response. Apparently, I rely on a different industry expert for prospect rankings than others. No one is questioning Adell's value, though whether I and others "hold on to" my prospects does not affect Adell's value.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 6:45 PM
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Well, good debate. Given how strong Otto and others hold on to their top prospects, I think the value of a guy liken Adell is pretty clear.
This also is about what makes a trade worthy of a veto. I almost never veto a trade in any of my leagues. In fact, I’ve never done it just because I think it’s too one-sided.
This is like the Kluber trade from early in the year where most thought Zips got robbed. Then Kluber got hurt, Brantley kept up a 7 ppg pace, and I got nothing.
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And...just to be clear, I haven't seen anyone saying that any one didn't negotiate in good faith. That certainly isn't what I'm saying, but, bad deals/trades here and out in the real world get negotiated in good faith all the time. It also doesn't matter if you use P/IP. It's a key number in evaluating a pitcher's performance in this game given how the scoring is done and since the whole point is to score as many points as you can.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 5:16 PM
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It's not the case with Bellinger because he's a young superstar player on reasonable contracts for his performance and it's difficult, if not impossible in H2H leagues according to Bellinger's page to pull off a deal for him. Presumably, that's because the team with him doesn't want to give him up unless it gets a ton in order to get fair value. You can argue all you want about Adell and Marquez but it isn't fair value. The lack of trade history involving Bellinger since December backs that up.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 4:55 PM
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What you describe is indeed the common Ottoneu pattern for these trades, but what seems different about this one is the quality of the high salaried guy (Bellinger). I imagine most if not all owners would consider him a keeper--a cornerstone player worth his high salary. The usual pattern is to trade an expensive guy who's not a keeper. Another question is the value of the prospect. It's the "Vlad effect". This trade assumes Adell will be another Vlad or Tatis Jr. Seen his AAA sta
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BM, you didn't answer his question, but, that's okay. To your point though, yes, I imagine it is at least "common", if perhaps not "very common" for $35+ guy to get traded for two less than $10 guys, but, of course, it's not that simple and you know it. The devil is in the details. One of those details is that according to Bellinger's Otto page, he has been involved in exactly ZERO trades since last December when Shoopy traded him to JBP. So, while what you state may be t
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 4:51 PM
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I’m in two other Ottoneu leagues and have seen similar deals done in both. Seems very common for one $35+ guy to get traded for two <$10 guys
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Monkeys, Change your position and think about it. Would you sell Bellinger at that price? You're never going to do that, aren't you?
STL Wise Guys on
August 20, 2019 3:59 PM
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Bottom line is that there were multiple negotiations that occurred in parallel. Everyone negotiated in good faith for their team’s best interest. I’m not sure why the result gets vetoed. I don’t use p/ip and it’s obvious I had to give up more as the deal was basically Adell and Marquez for Bellinger. Two cheap, young guys for one expensive young guy. Seems like a classic H2H deadline deal where one guy is playing for the future and one is playing for the present
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BM, you just made my point for me...yeah, that means you had to give up something valuable at the MLB level in order to get a superstar player who is 24 and on a reasonable contract for the level of player he is. I'd respectfully disagree that he was an "ace" last year when he averaged under 5 pts/IP. Your own use of Marquez shows you didn't consider him an "ace" compared to your other pitchers or even had reservations about giving up such an "ace" after losing Sa
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 3:46 PM
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I suspect that BM will ultimately end up trading Lindor before the cut down date at a higher salary than he has now and will end up getting more than what he gave up in this trade.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 3:41 PM
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The 2nd trade is borderline to me. The only issue I have there is...why Ty France? Yes, he's torn up the minors this year but to date has no record of real success in the majors, including since his call-up last week, as of a few days ago he was a FA anyone could have had and doesn't have a "top prospect" pedigree. BM has a pretty talented roster with a number of guys at good prices, to get Lindor even at that price, it seems like there should have been a better alternative than Fra
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 3:38 PM
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Ok. To dive into it further... what’s the upside to me dealing a proven starter in that scenario? I swap pitching points for hitting, and likely pay more in the process. Marquez does have excellent peripheral stats, and was an ace last year, and is young and cheap. I had discussions on star players in a 1-1 swap for Adell, but did prefer Bellinger so had to give up more. Maybe I keep Bellinger, but at a minimum he’ll be expensive, whereas Adell and Marquez will be cheap.
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I went back 3 weeks in BM's lineups to find he had used Marquez once over the last 3 weeks, which is the same number of times he used Wade Mley. That's perhaps not a fair metric because we know BM has a good SP staff, probably the best overall, but it does show that at best he considered Marquez his 7th or 8th best SP. Bellinger should have been able to at least get Flaherty or Wheeler, though if JBP preferred Marquez to them, then I defer to his better knowledge.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 3:33 PM
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Marquez pitches in Colorado and is averaging 4.2 pts per IP, which is down over half a point per IP from last year and he has never averaged over 5 pts/IP yet in the majors. Maybe he wins the NL Cy Young next year but the odds are much better that he's a middling SP, which is what he has been despite some decent to good peripherals, because he is in Colorado. Bellinger should have drawn at least Addell and a proven starter without the "Rockie ceiling".
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 3:23 PM
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I really don't like getting into trade debates & have thought that some of the complaints about trades in this league have not been totally fair, BUT, FWIW IMO, I don't think the Bellinger deal is defensible on any level. Bellinger has the 3rd most points of all hitters, is 24 and will only cost $40 next year (before arb.). I'll be shocked if BM doesn't keep him so its not really trading away future value for current performance. Adell coming back is appropriate. The real problem is Mar
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 3:18 PM
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I’m surprised either of these deals would be worth a veto. I’m clearly trading away future value for current performance. I had multiple offers of star players for Adell, and he got a high potential starter at a good price, all for a higher price OF. In the other deal, it was three good price guys for 2020+ for a high price MI and a starter. Both seem like win-win given each team’s needs.
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even worse than a manbearpuig? or the bearsharktapus?
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 12:31 PM
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I'll veto that zonked Bellinger trade. I've never seen such a ridiculous animal in my life.
STL Wise Guys on
August 20, 2019 8:53 AM
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Jeez Zips! Thanks.
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That's called the Edwin Diaz special
Anaconda Cut on
August 19, 2019 11:32 PM
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i should cut everyone except lindor
Swamp Donkeys on
August 19, 2019 11:28 PM
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MINUS FORTY FREAKING THREE????
Swamp Donkeys on
August 19, 2019 11:24 PM
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I’ve gotten 4 inquiries on Adell. I’m willing to move him, but it would have to be for a big 2019 upgrade. Send me a message.
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Been a tough year for the IL. For pitching I’ve lost Kluber, Carrasco, and now Sale. Have had a whole OF on the IL for a while with Stanton, Haniger, Peralta, Lowe, and Hicks. Still want to salvage the season and buy if anyone is interested
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Looking to acquire some high-priced guys for the playoffs. Send me a message or offers on guys you don't intend to keep
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