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Here's the bottom line: you haven't been in this league very long and have already vocally complained about at least 3 trades. You're just detracting from the league at a certain point. You're free to leave as I'm sure someone would happily pick up the solid team you inherited.
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You think MoS is mad now, wait till I trade Vladdy to The Shift Is On for Matt Boyd and KeBryan Hayes tomorrow!
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Are you serious? Now I know you're just trolling. The vast majority of teams will always take a starting pitcher over an OFer. That's not even a close consideration....SS is probably up there with SP, but I still think front-end starter is the most sought after position in all of baseball.
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Even if I concede that Berrios has the same exact ceiling as Tatis or Eloy (which obviously I don't believe), do you think teams will actually take the pitcher over the hitter? I most certainly don't. But really, we are going off of on a tangent as I did not really want to hear your opinion on this trade, Italian, because I know full well while you did it. I want to hear from Montreal why he did his two trades in tandem as they make no sense to me taken together really.
WAR Horse on
April 12, 2019 12:34 PM
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That is exactly why you aren't, nor will ever be, a major league GM. Berrios is 24, dude. He was just as highly touted as these other guys and hasn't come close to reaching his ceiling. In fact, he has several years of seasoning and MLB experience, which should make him more valuable than he was at 22. Now, given the lack of team control (which isn't a consideration in ottoneu), maybe some teams would make that trade, but not based on current or future talent. No way.
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I'm almost positive that all teams in the majors would take a potential franchise SS or OF already at the major league level for a 3 fWAR pitcher (that's not a true ace, by the way) if offered. Even a team like the Indians where they have Lindor would and probably tried this offseason. Even if you disagree about that, I don't think you can disagree that any team in the majors would take two potential star hitters for a 3 fWAR SP.
WAR Horse on
April 12, 2019 12:21 PM
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Green Bregs and Ham's trade block has been updated!
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I doubt VERY much that the Twins would deal their 24 year old ace-in-the-making for either of those ultra young prospects. They have high ceilings, but are far less proven than Berrios, who has had success at the major league level and appears poised to break out. He has some of the nastiest stuff in all of baseball.
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Actually, I'm the complete opposite of a surplus believer once the season starts. The Acuna trade has everything to do with future value and surplus from your side and your words. Now, I don't understand how the future value of Eloy and Tatis is not higher than the future value of Berrios. I would imagine if the Padres or the White Sox called up offering Eloy or Tatis for Berrios today, the Twins would be faxing over the accepted trade paperwork to the league office while still on the phone.
WAR Horse on
April 12, 2019 11:01 AM
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I could understand that someone values Berrios more than I do, but other than three starts this season, there's no indication that he is some 5+ PPI SP all of the sudden. Projections for ROS believe this too and he is outperforming his peripherals even in those three starts. If it was Berrios for one of Eloy or Tatis, sure, I could see that.
WAR Horse on
April 12, 2019 10:57 AM
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I’m pretty high on Berrios, think he’ll be really good. Not sure it should take both Eloy & Tatis to get him though.
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It seems as if I value Berrios differently than you do? But since you are such a surplus value honk, do you change your mind about the previous trade?
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And maybe I’m too high on Berrios, but I believe he’s an ace on the verge of breaking out. Eloy has a lot of hype but hasn’t done much. I guess time will tell.
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I followed the discussion on trade review and it’s a bit misleading to say it was universally “negative”. There were mixed reviews and last I checked only one vote in favor of “my side”.
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nm found it
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Which slack channel?
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I did crowdsource this trade on Slack (it got a negative reaction) and slept on it before I asked because I did not want to come out petty or that guy, but this trade is really confusing to me after yesterday.
WAR Horse on
April 12, 2019 9:08 AM
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Can Montreal Expos please comment on the Eloy/Tatis for Berrios/Pinder trade that went through last night? It looks very unbalanced to me, but I'd like to give Montreal a chance to explain. Especially after the discussion yesterday was all about future value and there was so much FV given here. It is two consensus top 10 (where at least one of them is Top 5 in every major publication) for a good, but not great SP in FGPts (at least, not yet) and a guy whose best scenario is 2017 C. Taylor.
WAR Horse on
April 12, 2019 9:07 AM
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Montreal, that's a fair request. I disagree a bit though - I think when there's weird trading patterns (e.g. trading a couple players back and forth btw teams) explanations can be super helpful to avoid falsely accusing people of collusion. There doesn't seem to be a whiff of collusion here, it's simply that the math doesn't add up on this trade to me.
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It was a deal I felt I had to do and he didn't blow it but surely hasn't been the same. Manny had a great year btw. And here I am going through it again with Sale.
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I've played with the guys on the Trenton Thunder team in other leagues before, never had an issue with them, and they seem like good guys from my interactions with them, so it's 100% not something against them at all either. I would be saying the same thing no matter who made the trade to get Rizzo and Harper.
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 3:39 PM
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I can't speak for Green Bregs, but I think you are incorrect in thinking this is a jealousy thing by the teams dissenting. It's not at all for me. Not jealousy that Trenton may be ahead of other competitors (I don't think there is any favorite after two weeks) or that someone couldn't swing their own deal for Rizzo or Harper. It's moreso that someone is getting a discount on two studs, which skews trade value throughout the league as a whole.
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 3:38 PM
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Well Rizzo is borderline keepable imo since I kept him but had to think hard about it. Harper would be keepable if he goes back to 2015 levels. But look at Trenton's roster. He wont have the luxury after this season to take all his contracts. He will have >$300 (including yearly increase but not allocations!) invested in 6 roster spots if he keeps all his $45+ players. I get his play though. I also understand it sucks for the rest of the top 5 or 6 teams that are doing well at the moment.
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GBH: Next time I would just ask that before we veto a deal we give the participants a chance to explain their sides as I did back in 2016. The explanation changes me from veto to approve so I think it's worthwhile
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The trade will likely end up going through, but I think that tools like the veto button and the message board are here precisely to discuss the impact of a trade like this on the long-term health of the league.
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DVS: Yeah it was the Kershaw and Rendon deal for Machado and Eaton. I dont remember hating that deal tbh. The funniest part was when you said Kershaw is about to blow his arm out lol
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I get that Acuna has a great contract, but both Rizzo and Harper are rarely going to auction for less than their current prices, meaning they are actually keepable assets.
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FWIW, I veto-ed this trade because it was done in season with a pretty significant loan. Offseason, I can somewhat see this trade being passable depending on roster construction. But in season, Trenton is effectively getting 3600 points at a 75% discount while giving away realistically max 1300 points this season. And that gap will not appreciably close over the next couple seasons.
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Noted for going forward.
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 3:00 PM
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This seems like a pretty typical dynasty trade. I think Trenton wins the trade, at least for now until we see exactly how good Acuna will be.
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My comment was about a deal: Sonny Gray, Alex Colome, and Corey Dickerson for Shawn Tolleson, Bradley Zimmer, Aaron Judge, and Trevor Bauer. Oof, that didn't age well :P
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and this was me way back in 2016..... "Does anyone else think the last deal (Mookie and Westsiders" is a little one-sided? I am considering vetoing (something i've never done before) and wanted to get opinions/explanations. I will abstain until we discuss."
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Yup Kershaw deal I believe.
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Makers, last season when Westsiders questioned a trade, his comment was "Would Death Valley Scalpers and Major League WannaBe's care to comment on the trade that just went through? It looks very unbalanced to me but I'd like to give you guys a chance to explain." Just saying.
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Seager is available :P
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Me too! Let's wheel and deal
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This may say something about me that comes from a very dark place, but I am soooooo currently in the mood to trade!
Brawlers on
April 11, 2019 2:33 PM
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My comment was to spark a discussion in the league, which this did. I concede that we all different values of players and if I came off wrong, I apologize. I definitely was not implying that anyone was stupid or colluding. Sure, will do, Expos.
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 2:30 PM
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Agreed DVS. Makers, lets just drop it and agree to disagree.
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I agree with Italian's take, viewing this trade over multiple years should make Montreal the runaway winner while only helping Thunder for one season. This is the second trade in just over a week that MoS has run to the message board to complain about. It might not be "stirring shit up" but it definitely comes across as petty to me.
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MofS, your initial comment was intended to incite a hot discussion. You were not respectful in the least and certainly implied either collusion or stupidity. Nor did you explain, initially, your rationale for your terse conclusion. Then you followed up your initial salvo by making demonstrably false and inaccurate statements (i.e., "Free Rizzo"). So, yes, you went about this the wrong way.
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I totally agree, Commish. I would be personally fine with it if I made a trade and someone questioned it to on here too. I'm not telling anyone that they should or have to agree with me, but just giving my thoughts.
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 1:48 PM
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Not at all. I think Harper will outscore Acuna on a PPG perspective in 2019 and has a higher ceiling. While there is a price difference between the two, obviously, that difference to me in April is not even close to Rizzo. Especially when I consider Markakis and Taylor to be better than Bauers and Lopez. Hence, my comment about a free Rizzo. Like I said, if there were better secondary pieces, I wouldn't be saying it was a free Rizzo.
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 1:46 PM
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Everyone definitely should have an opinion. We had similar discussions in past and I encourage them in the future. We need to hear all opinions whether we agree or disagree.
Unless there is foul play involved, each team can and will conduct business as they see fit.
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We will agree to disagree on the fact that the comments have anything to do with past trade discussions. There's a reason I never reached back out to you about Votto or Rizzo, which is plain and simple because Alonso started the season with the Mets and crushed. If I really wanted Rizzo that badly to complain about not getting him now, don't you think I would have touched base again between the last conversation in March and now?
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 1:40 PM
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I have no problem with people saying they think Trenton won the deal or asking questions about the deal, etc... The "free Rizzo" comment is the definition of stirring shit up after our trade discussions.
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So, I can't give a dissenting opinion without "stirring shit up?" I've been nothing but respectful and honest. Nor did I ever say collusion was involved and definitely 100% do not think there was at all. Obviously, I have a differing opinion than Expos about the trade and that's okay, but I should have the right to say something just like Expos has the right to make a trade that I don't agree with.
WAR Horse on
April 11, 2019 1:34 PM
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MofS, you asked for Votto or Rizzo, we talked about a deal for Votto but then I said if you would prefer Rizzo, then you need to add more to the deal we were discussing. Then you lashed out at me for making an offer that you deemed unacceptable because it included Upton, whom you cut recently I believe. The deal you wanted to make with me was infinitely worse that this deal could possibly be. Also, I do believe your comments are affected by our discussions which is why I am responding to you.
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If there are people who have questions regarding this trade (similar to Makers of Sexy) the feel free to ask them here or PM me if you prefer private. I'm cool with that and have no problem answering questions regarding my thought processes.
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Rizzo at $50 is likely a one year rental. Regardless of how good he is, the future value for Montreal Expos will likely make him the long-term winner in this deal. While "dissenting opinions" are fine, don't stir shit up unless you feel a trade was collusive, which this one clearly wasn't.
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