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https://community.ottoneu.com/t/ottoneu-custom-leagues/381
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https://community.ottoneu.com/t/coupons-a-success-in-league-649/629
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https://community.ottoneu.com/search?q=arbitration%20coupons
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https://fantasy.fangraphs.com/ottoneu-101-the-5milb-structure/
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https://fantasy.fangraphs.com/designing-league-incentives/
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Rather than continuing this unproductive exercise of trying to one-up each other with a better insult or sarcastic reply, I respectfully implore each of you to check out the following links when you have some time to give this situation proper productive consideration.
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Any assertion that the current format is “good because it emulates the current MLB environment” is woefully misguided. There is a reason that MLB’s popularity among sports fans is at an all-time low, and the widespread blatant tanking is a big part of it. A format that rewards teams for every place higher in the standings they finish will naturally compel even “rebuilding” teams to ensure they are making “fair” deals that properly balance the future with the present.
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Please do not confuse my playing by the current rules as a competitor with my belief that there is a better way to encourage optimal competition and engagement. Most importantly, a well designed incentive structure will naturally be self-policing and will eliminate the toxic name calling and finger pointing that arises from varying perspectives of a fellow competitor’s motivations or resolution.
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Average salaries aren’t too relevant when not every player is up for auction every year. Low ownership rates are relevant in that they tell you when players are widely viewed as not worth rostering at any price. I know these nuances are not incredibly helpful when one’s primary focus is trolling fellow owners, but thought I’d clarify nonetheless as my comments seem to have been misunderstood.
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Nah, Devers average salary is $27. And due to the respect of the wisdom of the Ottoneu crowd, he’s overpriced. Kinda like Puk and Frazier no longer have value due to the wisdom of the Ottoneu crowd. It’s pretty straightforward.
Las Piranhas on
July 10, 2021 11:58 AM
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Apparently, you misread my post. I was just reacting in astonishment that the two most vocal critics of prospects for stars trades just got together for such a deal. As I said in my post, I'm glad to see you've come around on the concept. I never said anything about collusion. And I'm sure there was no intent to spite those complaining pricks that vetoed your trade a few days ago. Best of luck with the rebuild. Tough to let go of a $31 Devers, but Abrams and Brujan are nice pieces to have.
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This trade is pretty much identical to the trades you’ve made. What’s the problem then. I gotta say it will certainly makes things interesting as the season plays out. Love the fairness and competitive balance in other teams able to overcome and keep up with the other absurd trades made. I value my return so much. Gotta pay the price to get top tier prospects.
Las Piranhas on
July 10, 2021 3:36 AM
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Surely you aren’t scared of fair competitive competition. Evidently it’s only okay if it works in your favor. I don’t know Torpedoes, no collusion here, I’m building for next season. Value both players I’m getting tremendously. Look at the stolen bases I’ll have in the future. I’m only interested in making my team better. And there’s a price to pay for young talent. You guys have set that standard with the veto of my previous trade. Which way do you want. Can’t have it all your way.
Las Piranhas on
July 10, 2021 3:19 AM
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This is not a dump trade. As a matter of fact it is pretty much identical to your Mike Trout trade. I am not winning this year. So I’m planning for next year. Not a dump trade. The players involved are owned in more than 98% of Ottoneu leagues. That’s the basis for trades according to other folks in the league. What’s wrong Czech, you worried that all your trading away injured damaged goods players for top tier players is gonna prevent you from running away with the trophy.
Las Piranhas on
July 10, 2021 3:14 AM
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Hey, look! It's the two guys that are adamantly against "dump" trades engaging in the biggest dump trade I've seen yet. Good stuff! Glad to see you've come around on the concept that trading present value for future value can be mutually beneficial.
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LOL. If I were using a scouting scale I’d give this post a 20 for self-awareness. Good luck this season MB.
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Yep GC, you are correct I am not an owner that bitched about any of that. I did however ask if I could make cuts because I made an honest mistake. I do believe I even stated I don’t have time for a bunch of drama in a fantasy baseball league. That’s the opposite of bitching. That’s actually saying chill the fuck out and get a life. You however have argued and debated pretty much every post you’ve made. That is a description of a little bitch. Over fucking fantasy baseball. Get a life dude
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MB - just to be clear, are you not the same owner who bitched incessantly after not making offseason cuts in time, and then again after losing a coin flip waiver claim? Just asking as one of the “complaining pricks” you referenced. Cheers!
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Got it commish - doubt we’ll agree on this one but I respect the point of view, and I’m just one league member out of twelve. Certainly open to hearing what others think.
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Also there appears to be multiple lopsided trades made with same trading parties. Seems suspect to me. Especially when the trades are the top tier fantasy players being traded for damaged goods injured players.
Las Piranhas on
July 9, 2021 12:27 AM
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If you voted veto on the trade Killer and I made, then I expect you to be consistent and veto the Trout trade as well.
Las Piranhas on
July 9, 2021 12:23 AM
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If the Trout trade doesn’t get vetoed, then we have a bunch of hypocrites in the league. Honestly, I’ve never been in a worse group of complaining pricks like some in this group. Puk and Frazier have just as much value as Franco based on his poor production so far. If Frazier’s last years numbers are devalued due to a bad start this year. Franco awful numbers so far devalue his potential as well. Hell even if you want to consider his potential, it’s not worthy of those three players sent.
Las Piranhas on
July 9, 2021 12:13 AM
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With all due respect, GC, I vehemently disagree with any assertion that "integrity" can coincide with "tanking." That's just not what the spirit of COMPETITION is about. As for Ottoneu, I agree that it is pretty darn good. I am commissioner of this league because the previous one literally disappeared without warning and I stepped up to fill the void. I also hoped I could make it a better, more challenging fantasy competition. Instead, we are left with inane debates such as t
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I (and I assume most people playing Ottoneu) love it because of how closely it mirrors real life - the relative value judgments and the present vs future considerations mirror those of a real GM. The rules might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but I think it’s the best set of rules I’ve ever played with, and I’ve played lots of fantasy leagues. It seems odd that you’d want to be commissioner of an Ottoneu league if you don’t like the Ottoneu rules / incentive structure.
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“Integrity of competition” is not synonymous with “rules that incentivize everyone to compete in the current year”. You can have either without the other. There’s nothing wrong with wanting both, but it’s not my preference.
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When the majority of this group is ready to discuss making “integrity of competition” a leaguewide policy, then we can engage in a productive discussion. Until then, this is all just bluster.
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The fact that it’s a dynasty league should not change that fact. There’s plenty of talent available in auction every year to turn one’s fortunes around if done properly without needing to engage in dum(b)p trades. If it’s a fantasy COMPETITION, there should be incentive to COMPETE. Every day. Every season. It’s elementary.
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The lack of incentive for all of us to keep competing to some degree literally sows the seeds for this current spat. Rather than this inane bickering back-and-forth over perceived valuations, the only legitimate answer is a simple self-policing structure that rewards teams for every place in the standings—EVERY YEAR. Finishing fourth should be better than finishing fifth. Finishing 9th should be better than 10th, and finishing dead last should SUCK!
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The idea that it is somehow “good” for a team to disregard the current season and go into the tank, dumping useful current assets onto a competitor in exchange for prospective “futures” in hopes of a better tomorrow is absurd. Every team should have incentive to keep competing in the current season as best they can, even as WE ALL keep one eye on the future. Traditional Ottoneu is fatally flawed in this regard, especially in today’s woefully misguided win-it-all-or-tank environment.
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Any argument that the “prospect” one tanker is trading for should be held in higher esteem than the “suspect” of another tanker’s affection is just semantics. It is no different than a boxer taking a dive. He may be doing it for the long-term betterment of his health, but that does not boost the integrity of the boxing match in question. Such is the corrupt affliction that has infected most “dynasty” leagues, Ottoneu in particular.
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As commissioner of this league, please allow me to weigh in on the recent kerfuffle. I tried to address this conundrum a couple years ago and was literally booed off the stage. To repeat the obvious, as soon as any competition encourages (ala MLB) or even permits blindly “throwing in the towel” on the current season without consequence, any concept of “integrity” most certainly must be called into question. How can anyone prove the motives of a tanking team are somehow “pure”?
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Like i said its my mistake for the choice of words..
So its over and done with. Just gonna move forward
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If you just defended the trade initially and didn't post that you made the trade to "make the other team better" (I'm paraphrasing here), I don't think anyone would've had an issue with it. I think it's really that simple.
Strick9 on
July 8, 2021 6:10 PM
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We should be able to manage our teams as we wish and make trades as we please.. In no way would i want to cheat just to let some one win.
I just dont think you should punish masterbaters for the trade when this trade is almost the same exact
as the one excepted..
It would be one thing if i knew guys in this league and i traded all my players away.
Maybe my choice of words were not the best.. Ill still mange my team and start my players.. Not going t
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Yeah that is a fair point. I don’t know exactly where to draw the line on this because I do think people should be free to manage their teams as they see fit provided they are competing in good faith, but the response definitely did not inspire confidence. I also hadn’t noticed the trade was already vetoed…I don’t have a problem with that outcome in this particular case.
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Not sure I agree with your conclusion there GC. Seeing how it has played out, anyone could come back and say "Yeah, sure... I thought it was improving my team for the future". He was asked to give his reasoning for the trade initially and stated quite clearly that his intention was to help another owner compete. In light of that, the veto was the correct outcome imo. If he had presented any kind of argument in favor of his side of the deal pre-veto, I would agree with you.
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That said, everyone has the right to value guys however they want. I didn’t follow your second explanation any better than I followed your first, but as long as you’re saying you did the deal to improve your team and not just to help a brother out, then I agree it should be allowed.
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All due respect KB, that argument is bananas. Franco is one of the handful of most valuable assets in any dynasty league - in many leagues he would literally be untouchable regardless of what the other team offered. There is absolutely no comparison with your trade.
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I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on Franco's value...I have it very high. Again, in my judgement as an owner (a good standing one I believe), I got the best return I could to ensure my team's competitiveness for years to come.
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If your telling me that franco (rookie) with 57 pa .. is a fair return for trout and nola and morton.. its the exact same trade value as what i just accepted..
Im Sorry,. I have an issue with this trade being accepted and not veto..
Its the same thing you all commented on. So then my trade with masterbaters needs to be accepted..
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I have to respectfully disagree, Bees. If you look at the most recent trades for Trout, Franco at $7 is certainly fair compensation. This is something I researched before making the deal and I fielded multiple offers. Czech is assuming a lot of risk on Trout's health. I've been in this league for 5 years with 1 win and 1 3rd. I always try to win, but this just isn't my year. If I can get a big piece like Franco at that price, it sets me up for future years of success.
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Also the trade that was just accepted in this leauge is unfair as well.. No one gives up trout for that little.. So this trade also needs to be veto and shouldnt be allowed to be made or your all hypocrates...
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I joined this league 1/4 of the season in.. So making trades like i made isnt collusion. I try to build a team from the ground up and some times that means starting from scratch and being on the bottom for a while
But it may take a few years to do so. So giving away guys like i did is really more so to reshape my roster for my future.. Players can be good one year and not good the next.. clint frazier has potential as does puk.
So i apologize if i caused a rift in the league.. not m
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Let me clarify my comments. Maybe help clarify just trying to "help some one win". Ive been in alot of leagues over the years and each league is different in their own sense.. In some leagues I have been in, no trades happen, no one is available in the draft so your often stuck in the same top 3 or bottom 3. So giving away talent doesnt happen.
In other leagues trades occur often, players are cut, you go to the draft with money .. and have a chance to get those players back. e
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I wouldn't really have an issue with the trade, but this is, at best, really odd... "Making a trade like this to maybe help some one else have a chance is my reasoning behind it." I don't think there's collusion or anything, but that line left me extremely puzzled.
Strick9 on
July 8, 2021 9:44 AM
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I don't need a crystal ball, I'm making a point about CURRENT market value (reinforced by the Ottoneu ownership stats I gave you). It doesn't mean they won't ever be good in the future, it just means their market value is not high at the moment. But none of this is anywhere near as relevant as the point Czech made, which is that KB's rationale for the trade didn't have anything to do with making his team better. Player valuations may vary, but everyone should be trying to make their team better.
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And I don’t know why he accepted the offer. What I do know is my offer is a reasonable offer. There is no collusion. I don’t know anyone in the league. He accepted the offer because he wanted to. You guys are trying to sell your opinion of players as a reason to cry about a trade made. Your opinion of a prospects future is irrelevant. Frazier and Puk are considered high level prospects still. My offer was way better than the shit offers I get proposed to me.
Las Piranhas on
July 6, 2021 10:16 PM
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Czech traded every injured player he has for current top players in game. I traded a .250 hitter for .250 hitter. Ray had an ERA over 7 last year. McCullers was injured. You don’t have a crystal ball. And you don’t get to pick and choose only players you see as prospects but ignore the rest. So Czech injured players having shoulder surgeries are different than Puk or Frazier recovering.
Las Piranhas on
July 6, 2021 10:09 PM
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GC-I didn’t know you had a crystal ball to know the value of 25 year old prospects for rest of year or next season at that. Puk and Frazier have had injuries this year. You have no idea if the skill set will be back this year or next. All players are valued differently. Adell sucked last year. Not even back up this year. Can’t even get back to majors with Trout down. Everyone’s opinion is different as to value or skill set of players.
Las Piranhas on
July 6, 2021 10:02 PM
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Well stated, GC. And, let's not forget that when I asked Killer Bees his reasoning, he stated he was trying to help MB compete. He didn't try to make an argument that the players he was receiving had equivalent value to the players he was giving up, either for this season or in the future. That approach will cause problems in the league if continued. I just want to make sure we can all agree that each owner should be trying to maximize his value in trades. Clearly, that was not the case here.
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