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Not targeting you Chief. Half the league is in illegal state largely due to 60IL stashes losing 60IL status.
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As the new guy, here's my 2 cents on the topic. Getting arb on MiLB prospects is kinda lame as any of us I'm sure could think of at least a few "can't miss" prospects that did not pan out that way. Hell, this was one of the worst years for prospect callups I've ever seen. That being said, it's all within the rules and I've played in many leagues where I was not happy with the way certain rules were set. It's always difficult to make everybody happy in any league but I play by what it
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Sorry to everyone here (esp everyone new) that I’m even engaging on this but these feel like awfully targeted attacks and my only supposed crime was rostering an injured Justin topa, trey wingenter, Matt duffy, Matt strahm, idk who else, not exactly difference makers. In our league the only direct effect was that I didn’t have enough cap remaining to claim a cut gerrit Cole
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As far as OPL (which was the whole reason for my using so many IL slots), I don’t think you get a vote on that, you need to be in top 6 of a given league to qualify. I’m good with whatever solution Niv engineers for OPL for 2022 as he promised he would and I don’t think it merits further vigilante action. I love ottoneu but I don’t love an activist commish and would prefer to play by ottoneu rules and get back to doing trades
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That’s disingenuous at best, everyone was legal at end of season and offseason 60IL designation changes have caused that
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sorry for being redundant.
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It's not 10 prospects or 10 60IL, it's full active rosters w/ a few kiddos and then a bunch of 60IL as speculative plays over the active 40. That's not in the nature of the league rules. Our rosters are supposed to be in a legal state and as mentioned below, most leagues build in rules for that. Niv does not. However, Niv didn't build 40 man rosters, then allow us to IL our guys to remain competitive, so that someone could do an end-around and have a 50-60 man roster.
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Half our league right now is in an illegal state, with more players rostered than roster spots.
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Not 10 IL60 *or* 10 prospects. Rather a few prospects, a full active MLB roster, then some teams have carried 10+ IL players. So they're rocking a full, active 40-man roster then holding a ton of spec plays on 60IL.
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Read the context Chicken. I said, “if you have 30 players using up your games and IP.” That ain’t tanking. 10 injured players or 10 prospects, either way a team thinks those players have value. Like Bender said - this is a solution in search of a problem.
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"It's a team's choice" isn't a reason. Then it would be a team's choice to make a collusive trade, or to slot RP into SP slots, etc. It's a teams choice to tank and not pay attention all year, thus reducing competition for free agents, draftees, etc. This ain't the Libertarian National Convention.
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Not to throw to much out there at once, but another thing the league needs to agree on, and this happens in lots of leagues, is how long can a roster be illegal? I have seen leagues set it at 24 hours or 48 hours, but if there is no limit, things can get heated, especially in August when big names get dropped and people try to make room for their salary.
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I vote no. The distinction isn’t well laid out. I don’t care if you have 10 guys on IL if you have 30 players using up your games and IPs. If we are saying there is an issue with having more than 5 guys on the 60 day IL thus giving a team 45 players on their roster for an entire season, that is a whole other story. Unless I am off here, a player goes on the IL and there is no extra roster spot added. I don’t care, if you have 12 guys on your roster on the IL, that is a team’s choice.
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The nature of 60IL is not to stockpile. We are not meant to have 60 man rosters.
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You have 40 roster spots. Almost half is bench/prospects and that’s for speculative plays not the IL.
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I renewed my team till 2023
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I vote yes on maximum IL of 5
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I vote not to allocate money to prospects starting next year for all the reasons mentionned
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I'm conflicted on this. I think that there a part of me that hates this tactic but CB makes a good point. It's not really any different than stockpiling prospects. The only difference being that it doesn't cost you a roster spot. That is certainly a considerable difference. You're not only allotting salary to a future asset but you spend the roster spot as well. I think the answer is perhaps in the middle. Would be nice to have a limited # of 60 day DL spots so it policed itself.
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You have a budget of $400 right? So if you want to dedicate a substantial portion of that on injured players that’s a choice akin to loading up on prospects, unlikely to benefit you this year but with future upside. If you have budget space to make grabs when others cut TJ pitchers, go for it. Penhook has Sale, Severino, and Clevinger now for cheap after grabbing them at auction. Why limit that ability? Solution in search of a problem. I vote no obviously
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I vote Yes
Pirate Fan on
November 19, 2021 8:49 AM
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I vote yes on the above. Please LMK your thoughts.
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This effectively means that you have a bonus of five roster slots for IL that you could presumably use for speculative roster spots. However, it also means that if you are holding five 60IL players and your ace goes on the shelf for TJS, that you have to dump that ace or one of your speculative plays.
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So then if you have terrible luck and have 9 guys hit the 60IL, you keep them all. If you have 5 guys get injured and hit the IL you must drop one to roster another 60IL player. If you have 7 on the IL and 4 of them are players you picked up while on IL, then you must drop 2 IL players to get down to 5.
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So I'll propose the first one. The IL should be for IL. ie the players in those spots on your roster should be one of the following: 1. A player who was on your roster when he hit the IL. 2. A player you added to your roster while on the IL and who you can reasonably assume will return to play in 60 days or fewer. There will be a cap of five IL slots, with an exception made if and only if all players on the IL meet criteria 1 above.
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I brought this up last summer as a FYI on the board: I'm waiting to hear what Niv's decision is on the issue of using the IL to stack rosters, and last summer I mentioned that the league should take direction from what he decides to do in the mega league. I haven't seen a response on that, but that's something on which I think we should follow his lead.
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What I'd propose is that we bring to the floor new things now, so we can discuss them over the course of a few months, so we can then vote sometime before our next auction draft. That way, prior to the auction we will have discussed changes that will be enacted in a year's time. The 2022 season can be played under current rules, but the owners will be aware of any changes so that they can plan accordingly for 2023 and compete in 2022.
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To make a tangible, large-scale change, I think we need close to unanimous buy-in. We're not a league that started out as a custom one, and everyone except two are now at least 3+ years in this league with several being here since Year One. So the threshold for something like eliminating arb on kids, or restricting the insane nature of loans (talk about mirroring real baseball, no one would ever trade a MVP candidate and pay his salary, that GM would be fired) should need like 10 yes votes IMO
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There's stuff like that that I think should be changed. However, I'm just one person. I signed up under the umbrella rules of this system. As commish I've changed a few things, like that renewal date, because they're practical--no one should be able to grab a team in October, do all the arb voting, make cuts, propose trades, then decide not to pay the $100 in January. That would be dumb, and that Niv allows it is kinda goofy to me.
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Nuke's thoughts about how Otto is manipulated are very good. In the early days, you could put a RP in a SP spot for ++ value. So if you loaded your roster with RP and maxed your IP with higher per-IP pitchers in relief roles you could get an edge. They fixed that, but Niv and the community at large--esp those vocal on Slack and the Otto board--remain staunchly opposed. We had to install our own renewal system because Niv--who says out loud that the season begins at arb--leaves renewals til Jan.
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I'm 100% open to rules changes. Nuke brings up a very salient point, but I disagree on making Otto = "real" baseball, rather I'd like it to be a better version of fantasy baseball. Were Otto real, Mookie and Turner would have left me for Chief Benders, and there would be a big free agent market for mid-career stars annually. Were it real baseball, we'd have organizations of hundreds, not 40. There are dozens of large-scale ways in which Otto is not just like the real world version of t
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Ill trade for Witt. Send me offers .
Pirate Fan on
November 19, 2021 7:42 AM
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I very much would like to continue the discussion for seasons moving forward. After we fill out our owner roster perhaps we can have some discussion and get a better sense of how all parties involved feel and look into making it a rule moving forward into perpetuity.
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on Berrios hoping that he becomes just expensive enough that I'll drop him. I get it, there are several strategies for arbitration. But I've been an advocate, as have others, to make a league wide rule change to not allow MiLB arb. Like Chicken said, to institute a league wide rule change we need more than 5 owners agreeing to it. We got feedback from almost everyone and 5 was where we got to on Yes votes. Unfortunately that isn't good enough.
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Perhaps I shouldn't have named Witt by name but it certainly wasn't collusion. He had $6 allocated to him when I mentioned his name and that didn't change from that point. I definitely think that putting arb on prospects is not at all how I would prefer this game to be played. I believe that allocating $ to prospects feels simply like sour grapes because you wish that you had the player. I understand that arb $ is strategic. You may put $3 on Tatis because he's my best player or you may put $2
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But I can understand that we play by the rules as they are. The better you can stack your roster, your budget, and manage it through the season, the more points you'll score. It's the same game for everyone, so buy low, sell high and good luck to everyone.
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I somewhat agree with Penhook. Just want to let him know that he's not alone. I'd like it if Ottoneu somewhat followed MLB rules and strategies. I'm less interested in gaming it with "fantasy" strategies that the current rules allow... rotating 200 players through your roster in a season, bidding up Minor leaguers because you didn't pay attention or didn't want to bother with it in-season (but conveniently can catch up and dump arbitration on teams in the offseason), etc.
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One hard reality of Ottoneu is that virtually no one is accordingly priced. The reason for this is that after the initial Year One draft virtually no great player is auctioned at his real market value, and the reason for that feature of the system is that no one but the owner decides if the player becomes a free agent. There is no "he has hit 6 years service time on Arise Chicken, and had opted to enter free agency."
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I feel like changing a rule should have a higher threshold for passing than a trade veto, and 5 against and 1 for would still get a trade through. Was Witt mentioned before the arb window closed?
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Ah so I got boned because we can’t get full league participation. Cool.
Penhook Heroes on
November 18, 2021 6:37 PM
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12 teams. 5 not majority.
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I'm not saying it ruined my season. I'm saying the result was the opposite of arbs purpose and it was ran like shit. Here's a commishes message:
"Current MiLB players with arbitration $ allocated are as follows:
Bobby Witt Jr
Nick Pratto
Jose Miranda
Should the majority agree to adopt no MiLB arbitration you'll need to reallocate those dollars or else they will be wasted as those player's salaries will be re-set."
Last I c
Penhook Heroes on
November 18, 2021 6:16 PM
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While I admit maybe Witt shouldn't of been mentioned by name, I think it is a bit rich to complain about Witt getting $6 in arb. I don't think that really gets him to the waiver that much quicker (if at all) if he is a star. I think in every other Otto league an MiLB player can get all the arb he wants. I also think he probably gets much more if people think it is okay to arb MiLB players based on your roster. I get it. It is frustrating, just not sure how it completely ruins your season.
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Witt’s on Trade Block. If he is apparently worth 250% more than legit MVP Candidates in arb I’m excited to see what kind of 9 player deal he can return.
Penhook Heroes on
November 18, 2021 6:02 PM
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What are you insinuating? I took good contracts of inured players because I didn’t have a foundation. Now I’m still not going to have a strong foundation because my young players lost a ton of value before even playing an inning in MLB. And that’s till doesn’t cover the topic of why arbing players was discussed by name during the arb process with an open vote? Haha it completely shits on my team for this year and it really only affected my last place team which is the opposite of its point.
Penhook Heroes on
November 18, 2021 5:57 PM
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I think you answered your own question, "I punted the last two years." That is what disrupts the competitive balance, not Witt get a few dollars in arb. I did not put money on Witt (or any MiLB prospect) because I didn't want to incur the wrath of Chicken, but I def would have hit Witt up. I am a Royals guy and he is going to be a STUD.
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I'm not trying to stir the pot or create an agrument. But I didn't put arb on a single prospect because the vote was 5-1 and to come back and see not only my best prospect get beat up in arb, he was also discussed openly as a clear arb target. That's messed up.
Penhook Heroes on
November 18, 2021 3:54 PM
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I mean Mitch Hanniger was an actual MVP candidate and received $1 arb dollar taking his total to $7 comparied to Witt, who received $6 and hasn't even played a game in MLB taking his to $10. How does that make any sesnse?
Penhook Heroes on
November 18, 2021 3:52 PM
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There was 5 against arbing Prospects and 1 For it. How is that not consensus? And discussing Witt as the main discussion point while he gets arbed to death is more clear collusion than what we were actually voting for. I've basically punted the last 2 years finishing in almost last and now I actually have pieces and they lose a ton of value before even playing a season haha. How does that help competitive balance?
Penhook Heroes on
November 18, 2021 3:51 PM
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Welcome back, Papi. Please renew your team for next season.
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